Updated P4P: Pacquiao still Top - Mayweather Grabs #2 Spot

With the successful return of Floyd Mayweather Jr., it's time (okay, it was probably time last week, but we've just got around to getting the votes tabulated now) for The Boxing Bulletin to update our P4P rankings.

Photo © Marty Rosengarten / Ringsidephotos.com

The two main questions facing our voters this time...

How far should Juan Manuel Marquez drop, and did Mayweather do enough to knock Manny Pacquaio off the top spot?

Also in action since our last update were Nonito Donaire, Ivan Calderon and Mikkel Kessler.

1. Manny Pacquiao (vs Miguel Cotto - November 14) The Pac-Man remains atop the Bulletin's P4P list simply because he is willing to take on all comers, and is out there not only to dominate, but destroy. 2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (NEW, UD over Juan Manuel Marquez - September 19) "Money" looked like the same guy who retired almost two years ago. Not surprising really, considering his natural talent and obsessive work ethic. Now that he's back, the question is, who's next? Mosley, or the Pac/Cotto winner? 3. Bernard Hopkins This might be the last time you'll be seeing The Executioner on our list, as it's getting close to 12 months since he dominated Kelly Pavlik. Also, his future plans include a tune-up and then a possible match-up with Roy Jones. Neither fight does anything for is P4P status. 4. Shane Mosley Sugar Shane STILL can't get a big-fight, or even a suitable TV date. Unreal. He blasts out the scariest welter around and then sits out a year??? Seems like he'll have to face young Andre Berto to keep his name out there while the big money names decide whether they want some or not. Probably not. 5. Paul Williams (vs Kelly Pavlik - December 5) "The Punisher" is scheduled to face off against Kelly Pavlik for the Middleweight Championship Of The World, December 5th. I call this remarkable fighter Mr. Pound For Pound because he is a true threat to anyone from 147 to 160, and it says here that he'll be removing Mr. Pavlik from his throne when all is said and done. 6. Juan Manuel Marquez (down 4, lost UD to Floyd Mayweather Jr. - September 19) The magnificent Marquez probably came in too heavy, too slow and too old for the defensive genius, Mayweather. If he wasn't already declining going into that megafight, he is now. He showed all of the heart and guts that made him a future Hall of Famer in surviving 12 rounds, but was just outgunned. It's hard to figure out where he goes from here, but it was a helluva ride while it lasted. 7. Chad Dawson (vs Glen Johnson - November 7) "Bad" Chad has a lot of tools to work with, and now he has the support of the major networks, so the sky is the limit for the speedy southpaw. We'll get a better sense of exactly where he stands as a potential great when he laces them up for a second time against iron-willed Glen Johnson, who pushed him to the brink last year. 8. Nonito Donaire (up 1, UD over Rafael Concepcion - August 15) Since his demolition of Darchinyan, Nonito has done little. It's quite frustrating as a fan because he's a young, fast, exciting and well-schooled fighter who can create some buzz for the little guys in boxing. Perhaps the move up to 115 lbs will open some new doors for him. Maybe now's the time for Donaire-Darchinyan II? 9. Juan Manuel Lopez (down 2, vs Rogers Mtagwa - October 10) Juan Ma is another young fighter with the world at his feet. Great speed, accuracy and killer instinct are his main assets, but he's also developed some of the most shocking counter punching in the sport. We know he can dish it out, but can he take it? His promoter, Bob Arum, is planning a showdown between Lopez and undefeated Cuban Yuriorkis Gamboa. That match-up should deliver some answers. 10. Miguel Cotto (down 1, vs Manny Pacquiao - November 14) Whatever your opinion of Cotto, you have to respect his schedule. He's faced off against 3 welters no one else wanted any part of in Mosley, Clottey and Margarito. You can make the argument that he didn't really "win" any of those, but to be right there with those guys is admirable. He's earned the paycheck that comes with fighting Pacquiao. Should be an all out war for as long as it lasts. 11. Ivan Calderon (Technical SD over Rodel Mayol - September 12) The tiny Puerto Rican is still regarded as perhaps the most pure boxer out there, but it looks like Father Time is catching up quickly. If he wants to remain a P4P player, he's got to sign a significant fight soon because he's starting to settle into a cautious matchmaking pattern. 12. Mikkel Kessler (TKO4 over Gusmyl Perdomo - September 12, vs Andre Ward - November 21) With the managerial issues hopefully behind him, Kessler is set to prove that he belongs among the elite. The first step is defeating Andre Ward in the brilliant 168 tournament hosted by Showtime. 13. Timothy Bradley (vs Lamont Peterson - December 12) While his last fight with Nate Campbell proved little, we were probably a little bit late in including "Dessert Storm" as one of the 15 best out there. At first glance, it's easy to miss a lot of what makes him a very difficult guy to beat. He doesn't have crazy speed, or monstrous power, but he is solid at every facet of the game. While it may not make him the most exciting fighter out there, he just may be the most dangerous guy at 140. 14. Carl Froch (vs Andre Dirrell - October 17) The hard man from Nottingham is proof that boxing is no beauty contest. There's nothing "pretty" about him, except his undefeated record. He's made up for athletic deficiencies against Pascal and Taylor with grit and conditioning. He'll need the same kind of effort when he meets undefeated Andre Dirrell in the first round of the 168 lb tourney. 15. Hozumi Hasegawa (NEW) Those who closely follow the Asian scene may be thinking "it's about time" the Japanese destroyer gets some P4P love. None of his last 4 opponents have seen the end of the 2nd round. Included among those is a fellow named Alejandro Valdez, who beat up Fernando Montiel just a few weeks ago. Just missing the cut... Vic Darchinyan, Lucian Bute, Rafael Marquez, Celestino Caballero & Wladimir Klitschko Also receiving votes... Kelly Pavlik, Jean Pascal, David Haye, Arthur Abraham, Chris John, Fernando Montiel, Glen Johnson & Tomasz Adamek Not ranked due to inactivity... Israel Vasquez To make our top 15, a fighter must have had at least 1 bout during the previous 12 months.

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The Man to Beat Floyd Mayweather Jr....

Jeff Pryor takes a look at what it will take to beat Floyd Mayweather, and who might be the man to do it.

Photo © Marty Rosengarten / Ringsidephotos.com

Against a smaller, older, slower, lighter punching man in his last bout, Mayweather looked virtually unbeatable. However like all fighters, he is not invincible.

Even for all his world class athletic attributes there are areas to exploit against Mayweather, it is a credit to his skill and choice in opponents that no fighter he has faced has yet had exactly the right tools to take advantage of the chinks in his armor.

So, what is there to exploit you ask? First off, Floyd pulls straight back. His Fred Astaire feet make him hard to reach and his right glove is usually by his chin... but he pulls straight back. And his left hand is forever dangling at his waist when he does it. The shorter, slower man, with much less reach, Marquez was able to clip him a number of times as Mayweather pulled back.

Secondly Mayweather still allows himself to get caught on the ropes at times. Whether bravado, break taking or a comfort zone, when Floyd's back is on the ropes he is far less effective than when he can escape out the back door and move freely. Marquez landed some of his cleanest blows while Floyd languished on the threads. Delahoya too, was allowed to bang away and score significant blows with Mayweather back on his heels and hemmed in.

Third, his style is almost entirely based on reflex and speed. Those leaping left hooks that first caught Marquez off guard, rarely landed as the fight went on. Juan Manuel didn't have the speed to do more than dodge them once he had the timing figured, but no matter how fast, leaping in with shots like Floyd does is dangerous business and one well timed blow could change a fight seemingly in hand.

Lastly there is the matter of volume. Mayweather is economical and though his speed tends to make opponents think twice about letting their hands go, he can be outworked. The trick is getting that output to land (see above).

With those points in mind, there are several fighters within Mayweathers own weight class who would provide a true litmus test for Mayweathers unbeaten record.

Here we'll run down the most likely suspects:


Manny Pacquiao

Photo © Ray Kasprowicz

Debatably, he isn't even in Mayweather's weight class, yet so dynamic has Pacquiao's rise been that size considerations have been all but written off when it comes to the division hopping Filipino. An explosive combo of power and aggression, with a galvanized skill set, Manny seems to be the odds on favorite to face Mayweather should he get past Cotto.

With hand and foot speed, as well as reflex reaction on par with Mayweather this would be a tight wire tension drill for both men. Pacquiao would have a hard time reaching Mayweather as he pulls back, but he would be able to react and counter, get Floyd on the ropes and get shots in with his frenetic attacks.

Floyd would be able to pick his spots and counter, potshot at times and would strain to keep the fight at his pace, while Manny bounces at him furiously pouncing with a flurry of blows at every available opportunity. The crux of this matchup really would be whether Manny has real power at 147 or if his recent blowouts of Hatton and DeLaHoya were slightly misleading due to the condition of his foes.

If Manny really does pack the punch he seems to, and we'll know for sure after he faces Cotto in November, then this fight pits an absolute offensive monster against an all time defensive master. Somethings gotta give.


Miguel Cotto

Photo © Marty Rosengarten / Ringsidephotos.com

The written off man, it would seem, in the Mayweather sweepstakes. To my mind there is a very good chance for him to beat Pacquiao despite the sports apparent willingness to presume Manny's victory before it's happened. Should he defeat Pacquiao, his widespread Puerto Rican and east coast fan base would likely be enough of a cash cow to lure Mayweather into a bout.

Cotto showed he had hand speed the equal of Mosley in their fight and the skill to outbox him for a majority of the bout. Whether it be brawling or boxing, Cotto's defining trait is that he just has the innate ability to do what it takes to win.

The aforementioned hand speed would give Cotto a good chance to land a significant amount on Floyd, and he is a punishing puncher, particularly to the body, where Floyd has had rib problems. The landscape for Miguel to succeed in this bout would be when he has Floyd on the ropes. Cotto's swarming punches would come in a flurry and he's skilled enough to place them well.

The styles matchup would be less daunting for the Puerto Rican than some of his recent bouts as well. Cotto's weakness would seem to be relentless bigger guys he can't hurt. Floyd certainly isn't relentless. And he isn't going to pressure Cotto in the least. If Cotto could cut off the ring well, he just might be the guy to corral Mayweather and make it ugly for the Pretty Boy.

Antonio Margarito

Photo © Ray Kasprowicz

His wrap scandal aside, Margarito has in the ring business to attend to in order to repair his reputation after his dismantling at the hands of Mosley. Beyond that, Margarito at his best would still pose issues for Floyd. His length would allow him to reach Mayweather on the way out, and his punch output would be impossible for Floyd to match.

Though Mayweather would likely be able to strafe Margarito at will, should the cement headed Mexican be back in full force, this would do little to discourage him. The sheer number of punches Antonio would hurl, would make it likely that a fair amount would batter into Floyd, and Margarito does a good job of cutting off the ring and tracking down opponents.

Floyd would outclass and out speed him, but he wouldn't be able to resist unloading on the easy to hit Margarito at times. And in those moments he has to stand still and punch. Margarito would bomb with him and make it interesting. If there is a head in boxing to crack Floyd's fragile hands Margarito's is surely the one.


Paul Williams

Photo © Ray Kasprowicz

The freakish nature of Paul Williams size almost certainly negates any chance of Floyd ever excepting Williams as an opponent, so I'll keep this short; Williams reach would be a nightmare for Mayweather's usual style.

If Mayweather committed to working inside the giant wingspan of Williams he could find real success, but his comfort zone is on the outside, and Paul's size would allow him to clip Floyd as he pulled out and keep him at bay on the ropes with his long arms.

My guess is Williams never fights at 147 again so this is almost a moot point. Still, Williams presents the type of high risk, low reward challenge Mayweather has never been willing to entertain. In fairness it would be a lot asking Floyd to take this fight. Still, for as highly as Floyd talks of himself, this match-up should be fair game.


Shane Mosley

Photo © Ray Kasprowicz

Probably the most qualified opponent to face Floyd, with probably the best chance to win. His speed may not quite equal "Money's" flashing fists, but it's close enough to do the trick, and behind Mosley's speed there is considerable power. Zab Judah was able to knock Floyd down with a similar combination of attributes and Shane brings more punching prowess to the table. His strength and stamina would tax Floyd in close and his willingness to throw-down would likely force Floyd into exchanging more than he would be comfortable with.

Mosley is a total welterweight package, the likes of which Floyd has never dared to face before. Of the points I outlined above, Mosley would be the one man that could likely take advantage of all of them.

What makes the fight so intriguing however is the fact that Miguel Cotto was able to outbox Mosley in the home stretch of their bout to pull off the win. As good as Mosely's skills are, at times he just wants to fight and that mentality would keep things interesting and open up both great opportunities and liabilities for Mayweather.

Mosley the hunter. Mayweather the elusive potshotter. A great fight and the real matchup to be made at welterweight.


Each of these men has strengths that they could leverage against Mayweather. And each has weaknesses that Floyd could exploit.

The fact is, to beat Floyd Mayweather, you can't just be a great fighter, you've got to have particular attributes that can take advantage of his few weaknesses. You must be able to push the action and make him engage. When he is throwing punches, he is far more available to be hit.

You must have some combination of comparable speed, rangy reach and/or reactive reflexes to counterbalance his own otherworldly athleticism.

You must have a good chin, because he's going to hit you clean and fast at times.

You must be consistent and put in a full fight of indefatigable work.

And you probably need an X-factor. If you're going to do something special, you have to bring something special to the table. Could be unbelievable fortitude and determination, or it could be game changing power, unusual length or matching speed.

Make no mistake, beating Floyd Mayweather is a task that few welterweights on the planet would have any hope of achieving. At best, if we are lucky, one... maybe two, might get the opportunity to take up the challenge.

To many hardcore boxing fans Floyd Mayweather is unbeaten with an asterisk; some feel he flat out lost to Jose Luis Castillo, others feel his handpicked opposition has been the chief factor in his unblemished brocade of victories.

Whatever each individual detractors quibbling preference may be, it would appear that for the man who has proclaimed himself "the greatest of all time", many a fan still feels Mayweather has long avoided readily available challenges that could at least make such self indulgent hyperbole less of an arrogant assertion without merit and into a semi-reasonable, if still self aggrandizing, proclamation.

The point is, if we can feel he's done everything he humanly can to prove he's the best, and succeeded, we can live with him stamping himself with approval. But as there have been multiple tough and worthy fighters he has shied away from in favor of seemingly easier opposition, fans have had a natural backlash.

Mayweather is in the drivers seat and he can go some ways down that road to all time greatness if he wants to. Any of the men listed above would be solid choices as opponents.

There's a good chance for one or more of these fights to get made and with all the factors that go into any bout, it's almost impossible to predict exactly who or how someone may beat Mayweather. It may happen next time out for Money May. It may never happen.

All that most of the sports observers ask is that Floyd challenges himself to be as great as he already claims he is.

The man who has what it takes to beat Mayweather is out there. It may take a special night for this man. It may take a lucky break. Or it may just take an opportunity to step into the ring with him.

He's out there. Whether he gets an opportunity to prove it, with Mayweather's notorious aversion to risk as a barrier, is a question we'll have answered over the relatively short remainder of Floyd's career.

The double edged sword here is that those same men who could snatch his unbeaten record away and upend Mayweather's argument for GOAT ascendency, could also provide the nudge into GOAT-like possibility, should he conquer a few of these worthy challengers available to him.

The truth is, the men to beat Mayweather, should he face them, are also the men who will beat Mayweather should he choose not to. The specter of match-ups avoided could loom larger than a true loss on Mayweather's record as the years go by and with a rogue's gallery of dangerous opponents at hand, failing to rise to meet those challenges is as big a defeat as succumbing in the squared circle.

Floyd Mayweather is so good, he may not lose to Mosley, Pacquiao, Margarito, Cotto or Williams inside the ring were he to fight them, but if he doesn't face down one or two in a prize fight, those men will claim a bigger victory over Mayweather's legacy. Defining it, even in their absence.

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One More Round With Mark Lyons: Floyd Mayweather, Klitschko/Arreola, Jean Pascal, etc...

Mark Lyons is back with his weekly take on the previous weekend's boxing action, as well as a look ahead to what's coming up.

Photo © Justin McKie

Last week we saw an all time great come back from almost a 2 year absence and look as sharp as ever. We also saw a couple of gutsy warriors possibly move towards the end of their careers. This week, we have a Heavyweight title fight that has at least generated some buzz among the hardcore Boxing fans and a talented Canadian (pictured right) who continues to fly under the radar.

My take on this past weekend’s action...

I may as well call this Eat Crow Corner. In a sport when you should expect the unexpected and will be way off base consistently, you have to admit your errors and hopefully learn from them.

Marquez came in too heavy and had no business at welterweight. That was a big spoonful.

But the difference in skills was dramatic, and I'm not sure it would have been much closer if the two fighters had been the same size. I underestimated Floyd Mayweather. I assumed there would be some ring rust, and there wasn’t even a slight hint of it. For my money, that was the best fighter in the world.

As far as what's next for the winner, while Pac/Money could be the richest fight in history, I’m really hoping to see Floyd and Shane go at it before Mosley gets on anymore in years. Sugar Shane has routinely faced the best in the world, in many instances against better judgment and he deserves the shot in the spotlight.

For Marquez, I honestly don’t see what more he has to accomplish. The man is a great fighter, but I think I saw some signs of deterioration in there, although it could be more the weight and the opponent. You can’t be sure, but if he wants to carry on I suppose Katsidis is next. That would be exciting but unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Whatever he does, he should hold his head up high. He gave it his all against one of the greatest fighters to ever walk the earth.

The under-card didn’t really meet expectations, but they were well made matches so you can’t blame Golden Boy for this one.

Chris John put on a solid performance against what has become a predictable one from Rocky Juarez. It looks like Rocky’s career will be summed up with a lot of near misses. He is one of the good guys in the sport and has talent, but he just can’t seem to put it together against the elite. I don’t think it’s a matter of effort or desire. There is an instinctual side to the sweet science, and it doesn’t come easily to Rocky. To me, it looks like he bogs himself down trying to think too much in big moments.

Michael Katsidis picked up a nice win with a workmanlike decision over Vicente Escobedo. He was the busier guy and the fight wasn’t bad, but it wasn’t a thriller either. I just get the idea that Michael will beat most, but fall short against the absolute best at 135. I have no idea what that one judge was watching scoring the fight for Escobedo by 4 points. That was a terrible score card.

In what is always welcome, Tuesday brought some high caliber fights to the middle of the week and I felt like I was a youngster, drinking beer and watching Tuesday Night Fights on USA.

Jorge Arce is as gutsy a fighter as you will see, but his days near the top appear to be numbered. It’s rare for a slugger to maintain the level he has for so long. The pounds add up and eventually fighters like Arce are at an impasse because their body has grown to a spot where they are no longer strong enough to impose their will.

Simphiwe Nongayi? Yes I had to look up the spelling. Another South African comes out of nowhere. I’ll look forward to seeing him again.

Humberto Soto is one of the most entertaining fighters in the world. That guy just brings heat early and often. The opponent wasn’t a world beater, but those two rounds were wild and explosive.

I really think Soto/Valero has the potential to be a mini Hagler/Hearns. There is no doubt that they will trade bombs immediately in the opening round and I could see them both on the deck multiple times. Make it happen Bob – even if you have to stage it outside of the United States (which given Valero’s situation might be necessary). You have a possible FOTY type trilogy staring you in the face.

Looking ahead to this week’s action...

It’s good to see some word of mouth buzz about a Heavyweight fight.

Yes, sadly that is exactly how far the division has sunk. I don’t doubt that Arreola will bring a big effort. But the fact that effort is enough to get folks semi-excited for a Heavyweight fight is another example what heavyweight boxing has become.

I just don’t think Arreola has the talent, conditioning or experience to do much more than try his best on the way to an ugly beating. Vitali has every edge in the fight and I have to take the guy with the physical advantages who I know is in condition to go all night. I expect a steady diet of jabs and right hands until Arreola has to retire in the corner or have the ref step in after 6 or 7 one sided rounds. The division is in need of new blood and maybe Cristobal will supply that one day, but it won’t be this weekend.

Jean Pascal has given us two of the best fights in recent years and yet his fights aren’t being televised by premium networks (thankfully this one is available online at GoFightLive.tv).

Pascal doesn’t do boring. This kid is talented and even shuns some of his gifts to get into a war. He’s a television friendly fighter if I ever saw one. Silvio Branco is up there in age, so I wouldn’t expect this to make it on to HBO BAD, but it would be good for a Shobox.

A fight I’ve been thinking about...

In light of discussing Shane Mosley, I figured I’d put Shane in with John Mugabi at 154.

You think some bombs would get tossed here? The Beast is bigger and a murderous puncher, Shane is faster and has a decided edge in chin and stamina. Mugabi is a rare example of a guy getting ruined in one fight. Hagler stole his prime as John took some real heavy stuff that night.

How does this one play out? I think Mugabi is able to last the distance. But after taking some inhuman bombs, Shane grinds him down and wins a UD, 7-5 or 8-4. Maybe a late KD for Mosley.

And by the way, all of the stuff about it being out of line for Shane to talk at Floyd during Kellerman’s interview? I loved it. Promoting future fights is good for the sport.

One last comment...

I would be remiss if I didn’t give a shout out to the greatest Middle Linebacker of all time, Mr. Ray Lewis and the soon to be Super Bowl champion Baltimore Ravens!

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The Boxing Bulletin Pound-For-Pound Top 15

By Lee Payton

Photo © Justin McKie

It's time for another update to The Boxing Bulletin's list of the best fighters in the world.

With none of the top 5 in action since our last vote, there are no changes to the upper third of our list, but Vic Darchinyan who was number 6 last time has slipped all the way down to 15 after his unanimous decision loss to Joseph Agbeko.

There are also a couple names appearing for the first time as Timothy Bradley (pictured) and Carl Froch have cracked our top 15.

Bradley got a boost from his abbreviated and controversial victory over Nate Campbell this past weekend, while Froch benefited from my instruction to our writers to go with their gut this time out. I think it usually takes most P4P lists a little bit of time to catch up with the current reality, as past accomplishments are given too much weight relative to present ability.

Also effected by those instructions have been Ivan Calderon who slipped from 8 down to 11, and Juan Manuel Lopez who jumped from 10 up to 7.

1. Manny Pacquiao (vs Miguel Cotto - November 14) He's used to this spot by now. Negotiations for a fight with Miguel Cotto are currently ongoing, although it seems certain that the fight will get done. Pacquiao is the fastest fighter on this list. Thinking about it, I'm struggling to come up with someone who ever had faster fists. 2. Juan Manuel Marquez (vs Floyd Mayweather - September 19) Boxing's Maestro is set to show off his stuff against slippery former P4Per, Floyd Mayweather. Don't be surprised if he adds Money's '0' to his trophy case. 3. Bernard Hopkins Hard 'Nard can do it all, even well into his 40's. Apparently, he's ready to square off with the winner of the Dawson-Johnson rematch next time he steps into the ring. A true master in all things fistic, including picking his big money (and glory) spots. 4. Shane Mosley Perhaps the hardest hitter on this list. Shane is nothing more than a tank these days. He's got brutal power, a titanium chin and a willingness to war. That seems to be enough to scare the big names away. 5. Paul Williams(vs Kelly Pavlik - October 3) Many feel Paul Williams is the most dangerous guy on the block. They may be right. The details haven't been finalized, but word is he'll be doing battle with Kelly Pavlik in October, and in my opinion he should probably be the favourite. 6. Chad Dawson (up 1, vs Glen Johnson - November 7) Bad Chad is in for another gut check against a guy who gives you no choice but to fight. Will it be the same thing we saw last year, or has the young man learned a thing or two along the way? If he can convincingly beat Glen Johnson, he could very well find himself in the top 5. 7. Juan Manuel Lopez (up 3, vs Rogers Mtagawa - October 10) The big punching Puerto Rican is here more on style and potential than anything else. One of the very best things about this fighter is how often he fights compared to the others on the list. When the next big fight comes, he'll be ready. 8. Nonito Donaire (up 1, vs Rafael Concepcion - August 15) Finally seems to be getting his career back on track. This is a guy who has all the physical tools, he just needs the opportunity to prove his worth. We haven't forgotten what he did to Darchinyan, but the memory is getting a little fuzzy. 9. Miguel Cotto (up 3, vs Manny Pacquiao - November 14) Some would argue that he is the most vulnerable fighter on the list right now based on how he looked vs. Clottey last time out. The opponent deserves a lot of credit for that, but there might be something to the Margarito theory. He has a massive opportunity in front of him in Pacquiao... 10. Fernando Montiel (up 1) Another guy who can do plenty in the ring, but whose career has been rather frustrating. He's got a lot of miles out of the win over Martin Castillo, but you wonder how long that will last. It seems further away with each list we do. 11. Ivan Calderon (down 3, vs Rodel Mayol - September 12) Had a tough one last time out. He can clean that up with a rematch that is on the table. Probably the best pure boxer on here. He hits and doesn't get hit as well as anyone in the sport. 12. Mikkel Kessler (up 1, vs Gusmyl Perdomo - September 12) We rejoiced when his participation in the Super Six tournament became official. It's recently come out that some old promotional issues have resurfaced, but let's all hope he remains a part of the awesome event. 13. Timothy Bradley (NEW, TKO3 over Nate Campbell - August 1) The Campbell fight was far too short to get a real handle on, but it's possible that we were too late in adding him to the top 15. What he lacks in power he makes up for in conditioning, quickness, a solid jab and a good head on his shoulders. Those attributes combined mean more than the ability to end things quickly. 14. Carl Froch (NEW, vs Andre Dirrell - October 17) The Cobra is going to make you earn it. There is no easy way out against him. He'll be there for 12 and he swinging to take your head off. He takes on young, undefeated Andre Dirrell in the first round of the 168 lb tourney. If he's a true P4P player, he'll introduce the newcomer to a whole new realm of pain. 15. Vic Darchinyan (Down 9, Lost UD to Joseph Agbeko - July 11) Vic manages to stay on the list after his failed attempt to add a title at 118 lbs. However, that doesn't erase his quality work to this point. He can still be a beast at 115, and could also probably beat some other top bantamweights not named Agbeko. Just missing the cut... Celestino Caballero, Lucian Bute, Rafael Marquez, Wladimir Klitschko & Kelly Pavlik Also receiving votes... Hozumi Hasagawa, Glen Johnson, Jean Pascal, David Haye, Ricky Hatton, Tomasz Adamek, Chris John, Joshua Clottey, Arthur Abraham & Juan Diaz Not ranked due to inactivity... Israel Vasquez & Floyd Mayweather To make our top 15, a fighter must have had at least 1 bout during the previous 12 months.

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The Boxing Bulletin Pound-For-Pound Top 15

With nearly two months worth of fights in the book since our last P4P list, we decided it was about time to update our top 15.

With many of the top names inactive since our last update, there isn't too much movement, but you'll notice there are some changes in position from #6 on down, as well as the reappearance of Rafael Marquez who returned to action after more than a year off.

Photos © Ray Kasprowicz

1. Manny Pacquiao The Filipino Fighting Machine looks unstoppable right now. In May he added The 140 lb World Title to his collection with a spectacular 2 round destruction of Ricky Hatton and made himself the biggest star in boxing. Reported to be up next for Pacquiao is another P4Per in Miguel Cotto, who will have a significant size advantage over the Pacman when they meet. 2. Juan Manuel Marquez (vs Floyd Mayweather - September 19) Marquez proved that fighting the Pacquiao even over 2 contests was much more than a style thing when he became the first to knock out both Joel Casamayor and Juan Diaz. The World's Lightweight Champion now has his sights set on Money. He'll be taking on former P4P #1 Mayweather in September at 144 lbs. He's the best Floyd has fought in years. 3. Bernard Hopkins He's got it all. Perhaps the most complete fighter to come along in the last 2 decades. We haven't seen the old master since his complete handling of Kelly Pavlik last year, but it seems like he's shopping around for a farewell. 4. Shane Mosley Old Sugar Shane has some of the same stuff that made the old version of Sugar Ray Robinson so great. He's hitting like a truck right now and still has that granite jaw. You're not going to beat this guy with firepower. Sadly, he's stuck in a familiar spot- coming off a huge win with nowhere to go for another splash. 5. Paul Williams You know what's scary about The Punisher? He hasn't even reached his peak yet. His mix of size, energy, body attack and will make him a dangerous opponent for anyone from 147-168. If he continues to improve, we could be looking at the future of P4P. I certainly think so. 6. Vic Darchinyan (up 1, vs Joseph Agbeko - July 11) Darchinyan wasted no time rebounding from his first loss to Donaire. He got right back on the horse, took on the best available opponents, and that's why he's as high on the list as he is. In July we'll see his special brand of violent offense against a rugged bantamweight, King Kong Agbeko. 7. Chad Dawson (up 1, UD over Antonio Tarver - May 9) Bad Chad has rare athletic talent that makes you think of a prime Roy Jones. He's loaded with gifts and appears to have a good head on his shoulders. The man knows his game, but he'll dig down and scrap with ya too, as we saw in his fight with Glen Johnson. We get to see it again later this year! 8. Ivan Calderon (down 2, Draw vs Rodel Mayol - June 13) Iron Boy dropped a couple of notches after his 6 round technical draw against Rodel Mayol last month. Despite being so good for so long, he'll have to do better in his next outing to keep his name on the list. Still, no one else on here does the "hit and don't get hit" thing better than this guy. At 34, he's lasted longer than most fighters around his weight thanks to his impeccable defensive skills. 9. Nonito Donaire (up 1, vs Rafael Concepcion - August 15) He destroyed #6, but hasn't done much since. Donaire is scheduled to fight for some interim strap in August against a guy he should definitely beat. Far from inspiring stuff. He's young and full of talent, but he'll need to get a little busier against better opposition if he's to keep moving up the list. 10. Juan Manuel Lopez (up 2, TKO 9 over Olivier Lontchi - June 27) Lopez has had all the right moves so far. Earlier in the year he went loco on the cranium of Gerry Penalosa, and just pounded out the formerly undefeated Olivier Lontchi last Saturday night. While guys like Marquez and Vazquez are far more grizzled, and perhaps more respected, there are many who would pick the young stud to upset either man in the ring. 11. Fernando Montiel Montiel made his debut on the P4P lists with a shocking blowout of Martin Castillo at 115 lbs a year and a half ago. Since that time he's moved up to bantamweight, but hasn't really done much more. At 30 years old, now is the time to make a serious move if he's going to make some good money and create a legacy. 12. Miguel Cotto (down 3, SD 12 over Joshua Clottey - June 13) Cotto did just enough to eek past Clottey, and his reward is 12 rounds with Manny Pacquiao later this year. Many feel that perhaps Cotto has fallen off a little since the Margarito fight. While it's possible, I think you have to give Clottey's defense a lot of credit for shutting the Puerto Rican down. Either way, he's going to need all his ammo to deal with Manny. 13. Mikkel Kessler Maybe the most frustrating situation in boxing. Kessler sits atop the absolutely loaded 168 lb division, yet he doesn't fight. Think of all the fun to be had at super middle right now... he might miss out on it because of some managerial issues that have kept him on the shelf for way too long now. UGH! 14. Rafael Marquez (NEW, TKO3 over Jose Mendoza - May 23) The younger Marquez got back into the ring after a year or so, stopping his first opponent in 3 rounds. We're still not exactly sure where he's at, but his deadly power makes him dangerous for anyone. While a fourth fight with Vazquez is possible, I'm not sure it's for the best or if I'll be able to watch. The trilogy is as perfect as it gets in boxing. Let's leave it at that for their sake. 15. Celestino Caballero His last effort was not his best at all. The struggle to make 122 lbs finally caught up with the lanky Panamanian bomber, who is now moving up to 126. Perhaps he's not the most popular choice in this "what have you done for me lately" business, but you can't argue with his overall resume. I think he'll do just fine at featherweight, and I'm looking forward to his debut there. Caballero-Gamboa anyone? Just missing the cut... David Haye, Lucian Bute, Glen Johnson, Carl Froch, Arthur Abraham & Timothy Bradley Also receiving votes... Wladimir Klitchko, Ricky Hatton, Nate Campbell, Kelly Pavlik, Chris John, Jean Pascal, Hozumi Hasagawa, Joshua Clottey & Juan Diaz Not ranked due to inactivity... Israel Vasquez & Floyd Mayweather To make our top 15, a fighter must have had at least 1 bout during the previous 12 months.

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Weight Issues

By Lee Payton

Photos © Ray Kasprowicz

Lately, it seems like there are more big fight catch weight bouts than ever before.

When Floyd Mayweather and Juan Manuel Marquez tangle, it will be at a catch weight, somewhere in the neighborhood of 143 or 144 lbs. When Oscar De La Hoya fought for the Middleweight Title against Bernard Hopkins, it was at 157 lbs. And now, with huge money events like Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto and Mayweather being discussed, weight seems to be as much a part of the negotiations as location and percentage of the purse.

You've probably noticed a growing amount of fighters coming in to fights clearly weakened by the struggle to make a certain weight limit, as was clearly the case with The Golden Boy against Manny Pacquaio. Oscar entered the ring that night a sickly weakling. Middleweight belt holder, Arthur Abraham's recent performances have also been hampered by his battle with making the 160 lb limit.

We've even had world champions leaving their belts on the scale. The lightweight division saw Jose Luis Castillo miss weight twice in world title contests. Then the late Diego Corrales did the same thing against Joel Casamayor, coming in almost 5 pounds over the lightweight limit. Most recently, Nate Campbell missed weight and had to give up his 3 belts before he even climbed through the ropes.

But what does all this weight stuff really mean?

And what is the difference between weigh-in weight and fight night weight?

What is the process a fighter goes through to get down to the contracted weight limit?

What advantages does drying out significantly really offer? What are the disadvantages?

Is our current system the safest option?

Let's start with the difference between weigh-in weight and the weight a fighter comes into the ring at.

Most fighters these days are cutting about 8-12 lbs, meaning that when they step on the scale, they are pretty far from their natural weight. At a weigh-in you'll notice that the skin on the fighter's face will look tighter, the cuts in his body more visible, and perhaps their energy level is low. The fighter you're looking at is in no way ready for combat. In fact, he is at his weakest at that moment.

This is because the fighter has deprived himself of water. In extreme cases, water that he had inside his body was sweated out, either by working out in a rubber suit, running more, and/or hitting the sauna.

When he jumps off the scale, he can then eat and drink as much as he wants. He has about 27-30 hours to rehydrate and satisfy his appetite so that he can be strong for the fight.

What does this mean in the current competitive picture?

Not all fighters who fight at the same weight are really the same size. For example, Shane Mosley made 147 lbs for his fight with Margarito, but in the ring, he was 160 lbs. Compare that to Mayweather, who is also a welterweight, but who weighs 147 or so on fight night. He is one of the very, very few fighters who doesn't dry out at all. If he chose to fight Mosley (fat chance), he'd be entering the ring at about a 12 lb weight disadvantage.

For his next fight, Mayweather will need to lose a handful of pounds, and might actually have to skip breakfast and lunch and not drink anything before the weigh-in. Marquez, on the other hand, probably won't even get as high at 144, but rather is more likely to come in at closer to 140, which is his peak fight night weight these days.

What does it mean when they climb through the ropes? Very little. Mayweather will have about 8 or so lbs on Marquez, which is significant, but it would mean much more if they weren't both master boxers. Fighting a pressure fighter, or a very physical style at a size disadvantage would be a whole different matter. Floyd isn't the type of guy who will definitely take advantage of those extra lbs.

Resist the temptation of thinking JMM will be hugely affected by coming in at welter. He won't. He'll be the same sharpshooting warrior he always has been, he'll just be able to eat and drink all the way through camp without, a single worry about making a certain weight. He's not going to bulk up considerably and he won't be any slower. You'll be seeing the Marquez you're used to. Same goes for Mayweather. "Money" is just a little bigger. That's all.

One pug who is apparently writing his own rules when it comes to weight in boxing is Manny Pacquiao.

You've all heard about how he started at 106, was the flyweight champion and is now the junior-welterweight champion. As special as he is, that stat is a little misleading.


First off, while the great majority of fighters turn pro in their 20's, Pacquaio started his pro career a few weeks after his 16th birthday. Naturally that's going to create the impression his weight gains have been remarkable, when in reality most fighters have gained considerable weight since that age.

At age 15, Roy Jones Jr. was fighting as a bantamweight. That's 119 lbs in the amateur class. At 17, Roy was a junior-welter - 35 lbs south of where he campaigned for most of his pro-career.

Another example is Carl Daniels who fought Bernard Hopkins for the world middleweight title. Daniels won the national Golden Gloves tournament as a 16 year old flyweight. That's flyweight - 112 lbs.

And Floyd Mayweather Jr.? At age 16, Floyd won the national golden gloves as a light-flyweight. That's 106 lbs. The following year, Floyd again claimed national honors, this time at 112 lbs and two years later, won bronze at the '96 Atlanta games as a featherweight.

But back to former flyweight champion, Manny Pacquaio. The above named fighters weights listed are from same day weigh-ins, while the Pac-Man's pro weight totals are not. With the advantage of having another day to rehydrate, it's likely he was nowhere near 112 lbs in the ring. Probably a lot closer to 126 lbs.

The evidence of his weight struggles came in his loss to Medgoen Singsurat, where he appeared to have nothing left at the weight and was stopped by a body shot. Then came a move up to 122, where he was his devastating self once again.

People forget that during the latter part of his stay at 130, including the rematch with Marquez, he was a welterweight in the ring, weighing between 144-146 lbs. So really, he could have been a junior-welter a few years ago, which makes his blowout of Hatton much easier to understand. When the bell rang, Ricky had to struggle to make the limit, and only had a 4 lb edge.

Playing the weight game in boxing is dangerous. When a fighter denies himself fuel and fluid, he's doing something that's not natural for his body. Boxing is dangerous enough without this extra risk, but fighters are gamblers, and so are many of those who handle them.

The advantages? Having a significant size edge when the bell rings. Arturo Gatti was a legendary weight cutter, and it no doubt helped him blast Joey Gamache out of there in 2 frightening rounds. I believe he gained a staggering 19 lbs after the weigh-in for that particular contest.

The current system was put in place so that fighters who had trouble making weight wouldn't have to fight in a weakened state later that day. It's in place to protect them. The problem is, fighters, managers, promoters are taking advantage of it.

Now we've got middleweights fighting as welters or junior-welters. Feathers are lightweights. And heavyweights... well they could stand to lose a few lbs.

Like most things in boxing, it's screwed up, and there's no one way to fix it.

But when fight negotiations demand that a fighter come in at a weight that is going to assure that he cannot perform at his best, as is the case with proposed fights between Pacquiao and Cotto, Mosley, it becomes a bit of a circus, and does nothing but hurt the integrity of the sport. Roach knew he had pretty much won the De La Hoya fight for his man, no matter what the experts thought.

Let's just see these guys at their best. When Marquez and Mayweather lace them up, you'll be watching 2 of the sport's premier fighters going at it without any crazy weight cutting. No excuses.

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The Margarito Mess - Ultimately A Judgment Call

Jeff Pryor takes a look at the Antonio Margarito situation.

Photo © Ray Kasprowicz

After much speculation, rumors, mis-information and accusations it appears that while some specific details remain to be divulged, we know now the most important bit of information we needed following the scandalous events leading up to Antonio Margarito's bout with Shane Mosley. The wraps do indeed have traces of the ingredients to make plaster.

The biggest issue now facing the boxing world is what Margarito knew and when he knew it.

On the one hand, if Margarito knew about the destructive substance in his hand wraps, unquestionably he should be banned for life from the sport he's dedicated so much of his life to. Oscar Diaz and Victor Burgos are just two of the more prominent pugilists who could recently vouch for how dangerous the job can be with just a regular old gloved fist bouncing off your noggin.

What is probably needed in this instance is a deep interrogation of all those around Margarito, to try and glean whether or not he seemed to be cognoscente of his surroundings when his hands were being wrapped and if he ever exhibited or said anything that might point to his implicit knowledge of what was being put on his hands.

A prudent commission would also convene a panel of boxers and trainers to provide their experienced knowledge and give their opinions on the likelihood of Margarito being unaware of the contents of his hand wraps. A number of both fighters and trainers; Shane Mosley, Emanuel Steward and Freddie Roach, most notably, have been quoted recently stating that it's possible he might not have known what was happening with the wraps. Others, just as qualified to know, have steadfastly asserted the opposite. Clearly, it's a gray area in which a number of experienced people have varying opinions.

Judging only from my own observations of Margarito through interviews and second hand accounts, it would appear that Margarito falls into that type of fighter who gets in a zone and tunes things out, making it somewhat plausible that he could be oblivious to the dastardly wrapping going on almost literally beneath his nose.

Like an echo from 90 years before, it was said that Jack Dempsey thought his trainer was sprinkling talcum powder on his wraps in preparation for his bout with heavyweight Jess Willard. In a controversy that still remains ambiguous, his trainer later claimed that he had in fact peppered Dempsey's hands with plaster, which ultimately led to Willard's jaw shattering, en-route to a horrendous beating.

Like the black cloud that plagued Dempsey, the fallout of this scandal has already spread to earlier bouts in Margarito's career and the question of just how long this has been going on has begun to ring loudly. Kermit Cintron, two time knockout victim of the "Tijuana Tornado" is eager to write off his losses to this new development, alleging that loaded gloves must have taken his undefeated record from him. It must be said however, that in his most recent bout, Cintron claimed that the devastating punch that Sergio Martinez dropped him with, must have been a headbutt.

The same Sergio Martinez was stopped in seven by Margarito back in 2000, and has flatly stated that Margarito was simply the better man back then, and loaded gloves were no issue. In between these two opposing positions, lies Miguel Cotto, who has remained ominously silent for the majority of the investigation. Though Cotto has shown restraint and class in his handling of the situation, behind the scenes rumblings have him extremely angry and in a development that continues to simmer, it has begun to drive a wedge between he and his promoter, Bob Arum, who has defended Margarito.

Many have pointed to the damage that Cotto's face sustained by the end of his match with Margarito and also to Sebastian Lujan's detaching ear, which stopped his bout with Margarito as the appendage began to tear away from his head from repeated clubbing rights to the head. With these dramatic examples of facial trauma, it is posited that this is evidence of prior misconduct. But if this is the case, one wonders why Paul Williams or Cintron didn't suffer the same disfigurement, should loaded gloves have been in use by team Margarito for an extended period of time. It could be argued that perhaps their skin was simply more resilient... but conversely, it could be argued that Cotto and Lujan's skin is simply less durable, loaded gloves or no. Ultimately these speculations lead only in circles.

In regards to the possibility that loaded gloves were used in Margarito's earlier bouts only one thing is certain, the commissions and opposing trainers all had the opportunity to inspect the wraps and sign off on them. None ever spotted anything unusual, nor raised any voice of caution or concern. Be that as it may, one other certainty may be drawn here, the question of tampering, even with no evidence whatsoever, will always hang over Margarito's earlier accomplishments. A shame in any event for if Margarito knowingly cheated and threw away all of his tremendous work for an insidious advantage it is a terrible pity, but worse, if his sacrifices to boxing have been taken from him by someone he trusted implicitly.

Manny Steward is quoted in next months issue of The Ring with his opinion, and seems dubious as to the likelihood of prior illegalities. “I doubt Margarito has done this in the past; he’s fought in all of the biggest states with the best commissions, so I find it hard to believe he’d get away with it for this long."

Looking into Margarito's past and trying to determine what effect loaded gloves may or may not have had on his rise to the top of the welterweight division is something that will be argued over and speculated on for years to come. More pressing is the issue of what exactly Margarito's future will entail.

Currently serving a one year suspension by the California State Athletic Commission, which for all intents and purposes locks him out of American boxing into the year 2010, Margarito faces a difficult stretch. Talk of a bout in Mexico has been met with mixed reaction from fans and the boxing establishment. Such a bout may alienate the American Commissions who would feel that Promoter Arum and Margarito are circumventing their ruling, and perhaps making a speedy reinstatement after one year less likely.

Margarito's wild card, may be the support of Freddie Roach, with whom there has been preliminary discussions of a future partnership. Roach brings an integrity and reputation that would go far to put a continuation of Margarito's career in a positive light. Few take the cruelties of the sport more seriously than Roach, who has been dealt a tough lot, dealing with Parkinson's disease brought on by the damage he took as a professional prize fighter. Few too, would be able to speak to the severity of Margarito's offenses and ensure that under his watch there would be zero possibility of future indiscretions.

In fact this is a chief reason why it's not much of a risk to reinstate Margarito, should the commission be reasonably certain he wasn't aware of the wrongdoings; from here on out, all eyes will be glued to the wrapping process of Margarito's hands. With such attention it would be impossible and incredibly foolhardy to ever again attempt any kind of tampering.

Roach has spoken with Margarito about the situation and came away from the conversation with an emotional Margarito, believing him. He feels that Margarito is a stand up guy and sincere in his assertion that he didn't know what was going on with the wraps. One gets the sense, from watching his career journey, that Margarito is indeed a sincere, hardworking guy. Which is why this whole thing has been all the more troubling.

There are no easy answers. Slapping a lifetime ban on Margarito would be easy, but imagine if he truly did not know what his trainer was up to. Simply reinstating him after a year wouldn't address the possibility that he was an active part of the devious scheme. Clearly more investigation is needed, before a final decision is rendered.

As with much in boxing, all this is ultimately going to come down to a judgment call. Like a controversial split decision, there will certainly be some fans displeased no matter what the outcome.

For Margarito it must be a frightening and stress filled time. Only he knows exactly how much of that hardship he deserves. He has the advantage of knowing the black and white of it, the guilt and the innocence. The rest of us must wade through the gray area to decide if a seemingly good guy, knowingly did an unforgivable thing.

e-mail Jeff Pryor
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Unlocking Compubox

Punch stats provided by Compubox have become a staple of many boxing telecasts, but just how useful are these statistics in telling an accurate picture of what's taking place in the ring? Michael Nelson takes a look at the relevance of these oft-quoted numbers.

Shane Mosley smiled and shrugged his shoulders.

He had just thrown seven punches within a second and a half – so quickly that HBO commentator Jim Lampley incorrectly called it a four punch combination. Three of the seven landed. Or was it two? Is it possible none of them landed?

The difficulty in deciphering how accurate the blindingly fast combo was didn’t just lie with the speed it was delivered, but also in the shell-like posture of its target, in this case Ronald “Winky” Wright. Wright was a master at instantly reducing the surface area needed to land a scoring blow into infinitesimal space in between and around his forearms and gloves as soon as his opponent opens up. It’s an ability that has left a long history of foes befuddled and on the losing end of lopsided decisions, including Shane Mosley himself, eight months earlier.

It also leaves questions on how much guesswork goes into recording which blows land and which don’t.

“CompuBox numbers in round one [are] demonstrating exactly what Roy says about the problem of Shane getting to Wright. CompuBox found Wright landing 22 out of 45, and Shane… only 5 out of 59, all body connects – in other words, CompuBox didn’t see Mosley landing a single punch on Wright’s head in the first round,” Jim Lampley said near the beginning of the second round, with a hint of disbelief in his voice.

“I don’t believe that number,” Larry Merchant quickly interjected.

“That’s not true, he did land a few shots to the head, they just weren’t power shots,” Roy Jones agreed.

The CompuBox process of gathering punch statistics is a fairly simple one. Two operators are sitting side-by-side along ringside. Equipped with laptops, one operator carefully monitors the actions of a designated fighter while the other operator does the same with the opponent. They hit one of four keys whenever a punch is attempted by their assigned pugilist: jab connect, jab miss, power punch connect, and power punch miss. As the fight progresses, statistics are compiled for each fighter – how many jabs are thrown, how many are landed, how many power punches are thrown, how many are landed, and the percentages of punches landed out of punches thrown in each category.

photo © Ray Kasprowicz

It should be noted that any non-jab is considered a ‘power punch’, so a power punch isn’t necessarily a powerful blow. A grazing Paulie Malignaggi right hand is counted the same as a staggering Ricky Hatton left hook. In short, the CompuBox system measures the quantity of punches, not the quality of them.

The lead operator, generally the more experienced one, may note pertinent statistics or trends to the televising company’s production truck. The truck feeds the information into the headpiece of the lead commentator, who then relays the stats to the audience viewing the broadcast. The stats are also displayed during and after the fights.

An issue arises when these statistics are used as an authoritative source on what’s happening inside the ring. The operators at ringside pressing laptop keys, albeit trained in their craft, do not have the benefit of replay or slow motion. They’re dealing with live action, prone to compromised angles and perspectives that could prevent them from clearly seeing whether a punch lands or not, in addition to human bias and error.

More importantly, the definition of a landed punch is open to interpretation.

In this instance, Shane Mosley was throwing punches, often in rapid succession difficult for the eye to register, against a man who used his gloves and abnormally large forearms to get a piece of virtually every one of them. Within a matter of a second or two, the operator has to make a judgment call on whether a punch that caught both glove and face, or both elbow and abdomen, is considered a landed punch or a blocked punch.

When monitoring a Winky Wright opponent, a punch tracker is largely working within a gray area. Ten different people tracking landed blows on Wright might get ten different sets of statistics. And while Wright may be the most efficient practitioner of the shell defense, a large percentage of professional fighters use it to protect themselves. Even men whose defense revolves around head movement and distance cover up from time to time.

Still, it’s rare that you hear the type of objections Larry Merchant and Roy Jones threw out on air. Generally, punch stat numbers are used as concrete evidence that a fight is moving in a certain direction. Jim Lampley in particular seems to treat the numbers with special reverence, often using them to support the inclinations of HBO’s unofficial judge Harold Lederman.

The relationship between HBO and CompuBox is a close one. Owner and co-developer of CompuBox, Bob Canobbio, worked as a researcher for an HBO series called Boxing’s Best in the mid-80s. The man he worked under was then producer Ross Greenburg, now president of HBO Sports. After developing the CompuBox system with Logan Hobson, he sold the idea to Greenburg, and HBO started using the system to make their shows more interactive for the viewer. ESPN and other companies joined the fray after 1989.

A notable exception to the business of punch tracking is Showtime. One of the forgotten stories within the ongoing rivalry between HBO and Showtime is how HBO bought an exclusive deal with CompuBox after CompuBox worked a couple of shows with Showtime in the 80s. Since 1985, CompuBox has worked with HBO and only HBO on paid cable.

Ironically, the absence of punch statistics may offer Showtime viewers a clearer, more objective take on what’s transcribing between two combatants inside the squared ring. A reliance on what’s interpreted as a landed punch, along with the musings of an unofficial ringside judge, can easily blur the line between describing the action and dictating a story onto the audience. So when Max Kellerman asks “how can one fighter who’s out landing another fighter in every round seemingly two-to-one be losing a fight?” – in reference to the quantity of Chris John’s punches vs. the quality of Rocky Juarez’ punches in their draw last month – it isn’t difficult to see how faux controversy can be generated amongst boxing fans viewing the fight from their television sets.

That’s not to say CompuBox tracking is without its merits. Extensive video review of a fight can provide more accurate and comprehensive statistics that can be handy in analyzing a fighter’s strengths and weaknesses. An analysis of how active a fighter is, how many jabs, body punches, hooks, etc, are thrown, and how consistent a fighter’s output is throughout a bout can undoubtedly be useful information.

But saturating the television audience with punch statistics tracked live, and treating them as if they’re an infallible representation of events instead of an interpretative portrayal, is abusing the system for the sake of production values. More command should be yielded to the fans, especially ones who don’t know how punches are tabulated by CompuBox, in determining for themselves which blows are landed and which are even worth noting.

While it's easy to measure the quality of play through the use of live statistics in football, basketball, and especially baseball, professional boxing isn't a game. Stripped to its bones, the sweet science is about who is consistently hurting who the most.

That, you can't quantify. In this case, less is more.

e-mail Michael Nelson
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Topic of the Week: Floyd Mayweather

Floyd Money Mayweather. Love him or hate him, there's no question that he gets people talking, and even though he's officially retired, it's about time we discussed him on the site.

This week, we asked our panel a 3-part question related to Floyd's potential come back...

Photos © Ray Kasprowicz

Do you want to see Floyd come back? "I look forward to Floyd coming back. Any fight he is in is a mega event and he is supremely talented. I enjoy watching Mayweather apply his craft. I'm not going to say all of his fights are exciting. But he gets more heat than he deserves from a lot of people." - Mark Lyons "Like him or not, Floyd is good for boxing. He is one of the few big draws we have left, and much of that comes from his being a polarizing figure. Some people think he's a careful prima donna, while others enjoy the hype. Personally, I don't have strong feelings when it comes to Money Mayweather, but I do enjoy his work in the ring. Hey, not everyone can be a Sugar Shane or Holyfield. Those guys would take on anyone, anytime, but they have both paid a price for it. Floyd is much more calculating and given the success he's enjoyed, it's hard to argue with his formula." - Lee Payton "I'd rather not see Floyd return. He's more opportunist than fighter. Which is great for him and bad for the fans. If he decides he's interested in taking on the best available competition then I then I'd like to see him return, but he hasn't had that attitude since early in the decade." - John Vaci "I'm not a huge Floyd fan, but if he's willing to fight the guys he should, then I'd be glad to have him back in the sport. He's probably the most recognizable current fighter outside of De La Hoya and boxing needs all the mainstream notice it can garner. If that means Mayweather plays the villain and mucks around like a sideshow, even better. Somewhere along the line people forgot that personality garners attention, and a reaction. Reactions by mainstream or even the sports media is something that boxing rarely gets these days." - Jeff Pryor "I didn't mind when he retired, as the thought of pointless rematch with Oscar sickened me. Since that's not on the table anymore, I'd be okay with Mayweather returning to the ring, provided he's going to take the fights fans want to see." - Andrew Fruman "Although I'm not a huge fan, I wouldn't mind Floyd coming back. Polarizing figure or not, he generates a lot of interest and it often is a pleasure to see his unique defensive ability and ring intelligence on display." - Michael Nelson

If Floyd comes back, who would you like to see him fight? "Man, there are so many guys i would love to see him fight. If Pacquaio (pictured left against De La Hoya) beats Hatton that would be a special match up, although I have my doubts about Pacquaio's chances in that fight. But either way, if I had my choice, it would be Shane Mosley. It's a fight I have wanted to see for many years and it would be great to see it while Shane is still on top." - Mark Lyons "Bring on Sugar Shane vs Money May! These two were sharing the covers of boxing magazines as far back as 1998. The time is now. Sign on the dotted line, Floyd!" - Lee Payton "Pacquiao, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto. I might favor Floyd against all of them, but they all bring more to the table than anyone Floyd's faced in a long time." - John Vaci "Those guys he should fight would include, first and foremost Shane Mosley. It's the most interesting of the possibilities and it's the right time for it. Aside from that match, I would say the names Cotto or Pacquiao, in that order, are the best choices. There are not many other names to consider. Paul Williams would be one other good, but unlikely candidate." - Jeff Pryor "I'd like to see Mayweather challenge himself if he returns, and that means taking on a legit top welter like Mosley or Cotto. I'm tempted to say Andre Berto as well, but that's probably not realistic until Berto can make a bigger name for himself. I know that a Manny fight would be a mega-event, but it's not on the top of my list, as I think Floyd would win fairly comfortably." - Andrew Fruman "It's to the point where I wouldn't be intrigued by a Mayweather fight unless I thought he was in some kind of danger of losing. Before the 'retirement', I felt that way with matchups between him and Cotto, Margarito, Williams, and Mosley. Scratching Margarito off the list, I'd add Clottey if he looks impressive against Cotto, and Pacquiao if he decisively defeats Hatton. Out of those names, a Cotto fight interests me the most. Cotto has the style, particularly the jab and foot speed, to give Floyd fits. It needs to happen." - Michael Nelson

According to Dan Rafael, Richard Schaefer and Al Haymon have had preliminary talks regarding a Marquez/Mayweather fight. Are you interested in a Mayweather/Marquez bout? Does JMM have a shot? "I have a bad habit of underestimating Marquez. So I'm going to do it again. I really don't like his chances against mayweather at all. Floyd would force him to press the fight and at this stage in his career I can't see him doing that successfully against a bigger, faster and stronger man. Mayweather knocks him out." - Mark Lyons "Floyd is a little bigger, stronger, faster and younger. What advantage does Marquez have? I'm struggling to come up with one. While I'll certainly watch, this match-up sounds more like a business move than a fight. That said, I'd expect JMM to put up a damn good fight. And honestly, I'd be kinda surprised if Floyd toyed with him, because of the champ's technical skills, fire and toughness." - Lee Payton "A Marquez fight isn't my first choice, due to Floyd having a size advantage. But Marquez has some of the best skills in the game, and has displayed a great will to win the past couple years that may have been lacking earlier in his career. That should be enough to make the fight at least interesting." - John Vaci "One of those names that he really is not "supposed" to fight would be Marquez. I'm not interested in this bout being that Mayweather has legitimate challenges at his weight and Marquez has unfinished business with Pacquaio. The fight itself would be a bad styles matchup, would not be entertaining and probably wouldn't be all that competitive due to Floyd's advantages, in size, speed and youth. Marquez's only shot would be to not play into Floyd's hands. Don't be the aggressor; make Mayweather come after him. It may mean the fight dies on the vine and everyone absolutely sleeps through it, but if Marquez tries to push forward he'll get picked apart by the speed. If he refuses to lead, and Mayweather gets just a little antsy to do something, he has a chance to time Floyd and maybe get something going. It's not ideal, but I think it's probably the only chance." - Jeff Pryor "I'm not really interested, although I can see the appeal of this match-up for both fighters. It's a good comeback fight for Mayweather, as he'll have all the advantages, and a win would set up a Pacquaio fight nicely. For Marquez, he's looking at a career high payday, and regardless of the result, his reputation won't take a hit. Does Marquez have a chance? I doubt it, although I don't think he'll take a bad beating, as I'd imagine it would be a tactical battle short on thrills." - Andrew Fruman "Juan Manuel Marquez is far down the list. As talented as he is, he's barely getting comfortable at lightweight, and now he'd be fighting a man with similar talent who's last five fights have been at welterweight. If Marquez was even slightly competitive, it'd make for heated discussion over who would have beaten who if they were the same size. But since they aren't, I wouldn't give Marquez much of a chance, nor am I interested in seeing it." - Michael Nelson

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